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Green Iran

Ramblings about Libertarianism

Posted on 2008.12.23 at 12:47
Tags: , ,
If a political philosophy cannot be boiled down to achieving the greatest good for the greatest possible number of people (an imperative so staggeringly vague that it's not actually that restrictive to new ideas), I am not going to trust it. I don't care if a certain choice is correct according to Conservative or Libertarian (which, with its dogmatic worship of the "free market" has become an annoying mimicking little sister to Conservatism) values.

I care if it's going to hurt people. Libertarianism seems to me to be all about reversing ideologically-incorrect policies and plans regardless of why they were put into place and (still more disturbing) regardless of whether they work. I despise that. Be forewarned that this is one of those topics that has attracted much better and smoother analysis than mine; I'm basically just ranting here. If anybody wants to discuss this further I'll probably end up tracking down some of the highly-excellent comments on the subject that've already been written.

The big thing that Libertarianism seems to have going for it is that it's based on "freedom," and the idea that regulations can only restrict freedom (an assertion somewhere along the same lines as "natural selection can only subtract information," and with about as much thought behind it).

I used to think that I was a Libertarian (or at least a libertarian) because I wanted less government-enforced restriction on people's lifestyles. I didn't like the fact that states could put the rights of a minority to a majority vote and call it just. I didn't like that one group's moral standard could be enforced by a government on people who don't ascribe to it who aren't even hurting anybody by their difference.

Turns out these things make me liberal. A Libertarian, near as I can tell, supports the right of some entity to do these things that I hate, as long as it is not the government but a business.

Biggest megacorporation around doesn't want to hire Jews or blacks? Freedom of association means that they don't have to employ people they disapprove of, and even if it means that people get hurt... well, that's not enough reason to call a decision "bad" from a Libertarian perspective. This is why the Libertarian Party platform talks about reversing basically every civil rights regulation we've instituted in the last 45 years (and anyone who tries to reduce this down to the dastardly and immoral "affirmative action" is bullshitting you; don't let them).

Other things companies are allowed to do: sell dangerous products in the absence of government regulation. That's right, screw you Food and Drug Administration. We don't need you telling people not to sell products that haven't proven they're good but claiming they are. The free market will ensure that, after time and after lots of people have probably gotten sick or died, those dangerous products will fall out of vogue and the business will fail. After several instances of this in which many more people die, eventually companies will be pressured by the market to sell only what works. The free market will assure these things just like it did before we had the FDA. Which was... great, right? ...Right?

The cop-out on this is that businesses run on contracts. Everybody dealing with a business has agreed to deal with that business, and that means they've been given a chance to evaluate whether they approve or disapprove of it. Aside from the obvious point that this seems like a great excuse to sell your kids into slavery (since it's well-accepted that parents can contract on behalf of their children), let's dig just a tiny bit deeper. Why are contracts binding? Oh, right! Because if a party to a contract breaks the agreement, the other party can sue them and the government will enforce the agreement.

This is the kind of lack of critical thinking that I'm talking about. It's all about what's right in principle, with little to no attention paid to how things actually work and what would actually happen. Without a real government, there would be no one to enforce contracts (unless businesses would be allowed to enforce those contracts themselves, which creates about the same atmosphere of integrity and fairness that I'd expect from a mafia family's dealings).

"But Libertarians aren't anarchists," you say. "They still want to keep the government around. They just want to privatize most of its domestic functions." Lemme hit you with some political science now. I promise, I don't talk in crazy elevated academic language; you'll be able to understand this. So read it. Much of it is copy-pasted from a discussion I had a good while ago with [info]ijtihad_alkitab, so I guess everyone should read it but him, as he's already slogged through it once.

According to Max Weber (and he's kind of a big deal in social science, even if his conclusions are obviously not always perfect), government is built on "a monopoly on the legitimate use of force." This means that if only one group can arrest you, can imprison you, can participate in wars (either on your behalf or otherwise) then that group is very easy to call an authority. If the government is not the only group that can arrest, try, and imprison, if the government is not the only group that can make war.... what exactly makes it a government again? Where is its authority?

What's defined as "legitimate" use of force is obviously up for debate, and accounts for much of the diversity of government styles. What governments do have in common is some ability to enforce law in a way that only they can claim.

The government has police that can arrest you. That's the government using force. The government has prisons where they can detain you. That's the government using force. The government can also go to war, or press other nations in other ways to do things the way the US would like. That's the government using force. How, when, and to what extent the government uses these powers is both regulated by what our cultures perceives as legitimate, and it helps define what our culture perceives as legitimate.

Weber's argument is simple: if "the government" is not the only group that can do these things, then it is not "the government." It is a ruling power among many. In Yon Days of Olde this was called rule by warlord. Nowadays it's called market anarchism, I believe.

Now, here's the problem for me with using a free market approach to things that are not the market. Government is an institution that functions by having authority. If that authority is granted by the people, great. We've got elected officials, and that helps us determine how the government uses its authority, and that input from citizens is what--for many--gives the US government its legitimacy.

What Libertarianism proposes is close to not even being government in the first place. If competition is the only regulating force, and if competition improves every product type or service, applying that to things the government is doing erodes the classification of that entity as a government at all.

And for the record, competition does not improve everything; sometimes you need standards. With the Libertarian non-regulated model, ideally people would only buy what works and what did not work would simply fall out of use and eventually companies would only sell things that work. Ideally this free market plan would naturally weed out, say, the quacks from the genuine medical practitioners.

However, it's not the free market that does that, even now. It's federal regulatory bodies. This is why we have the FDA, for example. Flawed though the organization may be, I would much rather rely on federal oversight of drugs and supplements than hope the free market will (eventually) weed out what's ineffective or harmful. The FDA has authority over drug companies. They have power. To go back to Weber's theory, the FDA has power because it can exercise force with the legitimacy given to government. If the FDA were not the only agency regulating drugs and supplements, you'd have drug companies doing what children do when one parent says no: they go and ask the other parent, hoping to get a yes.

The government works that way as well. If you have multiple militaries, multiple law enforcement agencies, multiple avenues of oversight for drugs and supplements... then no one of them has the power necessary to do its job.

So let's get back to that "freedom" bit. Ignore the fact that the Libertarian party doesn't believe in civil rights protections, 'kay? We're talking about your only freedom (the only one you need, according to Libertarians) being the freedom to consent to a contract. Sounds great if you don't think too hard: I'd have the right to consent or deny any limitation of my personal freedom (though who'd be protecting these rights is seldom answered; I guess we should invoke "free market" somehow).

But no government can work that way. Otherwise the government could make a law and people could just say no. Sometimes, with some issues, this sounds pretty appealing. If I could simply personally veto the legal status of marijuana, I would. But that also means that someone else can personally veto more important laws, laws that might be protecting me from them. And in the end, because people can singularly opt out, laws cease to have meaning because there is no force behind them.

So what we're looking at, at least when we're talking about the ultimate dream that Libertarianism is trying to achieve, is damn near anarchy. I have the same problems with it that I have with anarchy, namely that in order for it to work... all humans involved must have previously reached some form of vast forward leap in the evolution of their benevolence and consciences, to the point where we don't need rules (or if we do, we certainly don't need to enforce them).

Comments:


_jeremiad
[info]_jeremiad at 2008-12-23 17:58 (UTC) (Link)
This was a very good read. I'm saving it to read again later.
An Arthur Dent waiting to happen
[info]beldar at 2008-12-23 18:18 (UTC) (Link)
I consider myself libertarian, because it's the best label that fits. I basically see the philosophy as desiring power to be divested down from central control as much as is practical (Big Brother is good for some things, but not everything) and in that power be as transparent as possible -- the Constitution set up a central government not only with limited powers but a balance to ensure that everyone was checking into everyone else's business, and the First Amendment was to aid the citizenry in providing a further check.

I have my qualms about the "free market" aspect of big-L libertarianism. Megacorps tend to become practically governments unto themselves, and just as prone to corruption as institutions of State. The best compromise we have so far is to pit King Kong (state) against Godzilla (big corporations) and just hope we don't get stepped on.

I have liberal views and beliefs, but I don't like the Liberal tendency to want to give more power to the central government. Socialism, even with the best intentions, allowed to run rampant hasn't worked out for a lot of people over the last century.

I can't help but agree with the anarchy/libertarian resemblance. I suspect it's the "if you take it to the extreme" definition. Take socialism to the extreme and you get Soviet Communism, take nationalism to the extreme and you get Nazism, take Libertarianism to the extreme and you get full-on anarchy. The more I learn about British Anarchists the more I think those who don't just want to see it all burn are U.K. Libertarians.
Virginia Fell
[info]virginia_fell at 2008-12-23 18:23 (UTC) (Link)
If by "take it to the extreme" you mean, "look too closely at the party platform," then yeah.

Deregulating as much of the market as possible and running as many things based on contract and consent rather than legal force is a pretty mainstream part of Libertarianism.

It's just that a lot of Libertarians either don't realize this, or they don't want to talk about it because if people start thinking you're a closet anarchist, they'll assume you're nuts and quit listening to you.
An Arthur Dent waiting to happen
[info]beldar at 2008-12-23 18:38 (UTC) (Link)
Oh, you don't have to delve into the party platform for people to think you're nuts. The Lib party tends to attract all kinds of oddballs. I'm sure part of it is from being open to legalizing drugs and prostitution.
One major mover in the Libertarian party that I knew back in Fayetteville, Ark., was huge into local conspiracy theories, especially how the CIA was running drug dealing via the Mena, Ark., airport and how a U.S. Congressman was killed in the Lockerbie crash before he could testify against the whole thing.

While the party platform is an Ayn Rand wet dream, it's as hopelessly unattainably utopian as the better intentions of Communism. To get it to work, a lot of people are going to have to let go of power and control for the good of their fellow being (without others taking up the whip and just giving us old problems with new names), and humans don't tend to work that way.
Virginia Fell
[info]virginia_fell at 2008-12-24 01:31 (UTC) (Link)
Libertarianism has the same problem as anarchy and Communism. If you assume that people do not need rules, and if you assume that everyone's intentions are not only noble but well-informed enough to be effectively beneficial those things are fantastic philosophical foundations on which to build policy.

Unfortunately it isn't beneficial to make policy as though we were living in a world that we're not, because that is a good way to overlook real progress and real problems.

This is one reason I think a lot of kooks are drawn to Libertarianism. It doesn't require too many inconvenient comparisons back to reality, or a great deal of critical thinking about whether or not the means will achieve their stated ends. Just say that the government shouldn't control anybody's life, and bam! You're a Libertarian and a macho self-governing counter-cultural enlightened warrior for freedom. It's pretty tempting, but you can't think too hard about what you're signing on for (which says something deliciously ironic about all their ranting about trusting in the wisdom of allegedly-informed consent).
friendstephen
[info]friendstephen at 2008-12-23 23:41 (UTC) (Link)

I'm a libertarian because I oppose the right of all entities to use force, except in response to someone else's theft, contract breach, or the initiation of force. Some libertarian theorists oppose the idea of giving government a monopoly on the use of force, but I don't. Prohibiting the private use of force for redressing grievances after-the-fact is one of the successes of civilization; I see no moral issues in maintaining that.

If businesses sell products that make people sick or dead without properly disclosing the risks so those people can make an informed choice, they should be penalized, just like today. If businesses sell products that claim they will make you better, but don't, that's fraud (i.e., theft). If they knew they were lying, that's criminal. Put them in jail.

The difference between the FDA approach and the libertarian approach is that the FDA says you can't take an unapproved drug, period. They sometimes make exceptions ("compassionate use") for drugs that are far along the approval process but not yet through it, but that's if they deem it proper; it's not your right. If you're expected to die soon from a disease with no approved treatment and your only (slim) hope is a drug that probably has a small but non-zero chance of improving your odds, you'd better hope the FDA deems in your favor. The libertarian answer is to just let people decide for themselves. I prefer that.

I don't think it's at all inconsistent with libertarian principles to decide that children, like all human beings, are not chattels and may not be bought or sold.


Edited at 2008-12-24 12:22 am (UTC)
crysthewolf
[info]crysthewolf at 2008-12-24 01:15 (UTC) (Link)
Yes, but I think that the problem is that the libertarian party seems to lean toward getting rid of organizations like the FDA and not putting anything in their place.

A problem also comes in when you get to issues like fine print and legalize as to whether people are really "informed" as to what they're buying and the potential risks and hazards. See the sub-prime mortgage crisis. People can judge all they want but how many people do you think would sign up for a loan payment that would, within months, inflate to twice it's original size?
friendstephen
[info]friendstephen at 2008-12-24 01:31 (UTC) (Link)
Our existing law covers things like this, if we would just enforce it evenly.

We don't need anything in place of the FDA. If a company recklessly makes a drug that kills people, but markets it as being safe, take so much money away from that company that its shareholders feel pain. If a company knowingly makes a drug that kills people, but markets it as safe, put the people who knew in prison for a good long while. People in the drug industry will get the message: behave honestly or you will suffer. And people who need drugs will get the drugs they need because the red tape will be out of the way.

There is a rule in the law right now that ambiguous contracts are interpreted against the writer of the contract. Just go along those lines. If mortgage companies are originating loans where the payment is going to double within months, and they are hiding that in the fine print, then interpret it against them. Require the holder of that mortgage to accept the initial low payment for 30 years, then release their lien. If the payment change was out there in clear language and big type where the borrower should have seen it and would have understood it had they bothered to look then, yes, it is their fault. They were informed, or could have been. If they can't make the payment after reset then they should lose their house.
Virginia Fell
[info]virginia_fell at 2008-12-24 01:33 (UTC) (Link)
We don't need anything in place of the FDA. If a company recklessly makes a drug that kills people, but markets it as being safe, take so much money away from that company that its shareholders feel pain.

Do you know what prompted the creation of the FDA? o_o
friendstephen
[info]friendstephen at 2008-12-24 02:13 (UTC) (Link)
Yes. The Pure Food and Drug act was passed because consumers couldn't trust drug labels. Before the act you might buy a drug for pain where the label didn't mention any opiates and wind up ingesting cocaine. There was also a big problem with medicines that didn't actually do what they were sold to do, but stopping that was not one of the FDA's initial duties. Actually I think the bigger issue as to why the FDA was founded was food safety. Upton Sinclair and others had exposed how unsafe the American food supply was and Congress wanted to stop diseased meat (for example) from being shipped around the country and sold to unsuspecting consumers.

I don't think we'd have that problem today. In the unlikely event that a post-drug-prohibition, post-FDA drug company decides to put a wonder drug on the market where the secret ingredient is an addictive opioid, I think there are many product liability lawyers ready to make their living suing that drug company into the ground.
Brian
[info]archmage_brian at 2008-12-24 05:21 (UTC) (Link)
Yes. The Pure Food and Drug act was passed because consumers couldn't trust drug labels. Before the act you might buy a drug for pain where the label didn't mention any opiates and wind up ingesting cocaine.

This is true, but only part of the story.

The events leading to the creation of the FDA--the passage of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act of 1938--were largely spurred by a number of ineffective remedies being sold for serious ailments, but the most grievous incident involved hundreds of children who died as a result of being given an antibiotic "elixir of sulfanilamide
."


Sulfanilamide is an effective antibiotic and was a wonder drug in its day. The problem was not that the drug was ineffective or that it contained dangerous, unlisted active ingredients. The problem is that the company manufacturing it decided to use ethylene glycol (antifreeze) as a diluent instead of the more expensive polyethylene glycol (PEG). This still happens in South America and many other parts of the world--the two solvents are basically indistinguishable at a glance, but one is highly toxic and cheap and the other is basically harmless and expensive.

However, the US Government had no authority to force a recall of the drug even though it was killing people. The only reason they were able to get the drug pulled from the market was because of false advertising--an "elixir" is a pharmaceutical vehicle that contains alcohol, and this elixir of sulfanilamide did not contain any alcohol. The general public had no way of knowing that the product was dangerous, and the government had no authority to tell a company to stop selling a product that was killing people on the basis of it causing deaths.

Anyone who suggests that "we don't need the FDA" has no idea what things were like without it.

I don't think we'd have that problem today. In the unlikely event that a post-drug-prohibition, post-FDA drug company decides to put a wonder drug on the market where the secret ingredient is an addictive opioid, I think there are many product liability lawyers ready to make their living suing that drug company into the ground.

Safety is only one measure of whether or not a drug should be marketed--efficacy is the other. And you need both. I could hypothetically go on about this forever, but I'll spare you and attempt to be brief.

While it would be seem to be difficult to get away with selling drugs containing heroin today (cocaine, for the record, is not an opiate), many unapproved, ineffective, and potentially harmful drugs are still being sold on the shelves of "respectable" retail outlets. You can walk into your average Big Box store or corner pharmacy and find a whole shelf full of untested, unapproved, and unproven "dietary supplements." Most of them are completely worthless therapeutically, many of them have purity or potency issues, and some are potentially dangerous.

Why are these products even on the shelves? The 1994 Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) permitted manufacturers to sell whatever herbal/vitamin/proprietary cocktails they wanted so long as they didn't make certain claims on their labels--and so long as those labels also contained a disclaimer saying that "these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration." They also can't contain any ingredients that have been specifically banned--ephedra comes to mind as an example of something that was subject to recent regulatory action.

Caveat emptor, you might be thinking. The products are essentially required to bear a label that says that they don't work. Shouldn't that be enough to drive frauds out of business? Why would intelligent consumers spend any of their hard-earned money on these products?
Brian
[info]archmage_brian at 2008-12-24 05:21 (UTC) (Link)
"Diet pills," unapproved herbal supplements (some containing hormone products or illegal drug analogues), homeopathic "remedies" and other products have a huge following and are promoted not just by faddish health food stores but by the mainstream media and magazines (AARP magazine is one of the biggest promoters of quack medical products and supplements in America). The amount of misinformation floating around is immense. Most consumers ignore these labels altogether, especially when they have personal experience with a product and "are sure it works"--and some of them think that the required disclaimers are some kind of government conspiracy to prevent "cheap, natural remedies" from becoming mainstream.

What the DSHEA does is essentially say that it's okay for companies to rip people off as long as they kinda-sorta consent to it despite the fact that there's no conceivable way for them to be informed, rational consumers without being doctors or spending a great deal of time analyzing scientific literature.

You cannot and should not assume that the companies selling drugs have your best interests at heart--and you cannot and should not assume that you have the ability to tell which medicines are effective and which are not, because you don't. We're all susceptible to marketing and the placebo effect, and many diseases have no overt symptoms, such as high blood pressure or cholesterol--until you have a stroke or heart attack. How are you supposed to know they're working unless they've been subjected to clinical trials and approved by a regulatory body on the basis of positive results?
friendstephen
[info]friendstephen at 2008-12-24 16:56 (UTC) (Link)
The general public had no way of knowing that the product was dangerous, and the government had no authority to tell a company to stop selling a product that was killing people on the basis of it causing deaths.

This is not 1938. The news cycle is now measured in hours, not days or weeks. If there is a product on the shelves that contains poison, stores will find this out. Whoever made the bad decision to buy from a manufacturer who doesn't care whether their dilutant makes people sick will be cleaned out in civil court. Whoever decided to substitute the antifreeze for the PEG and not tell anybody is a criminal and can be dealt with in criminal court. If people are doing this from countries where American law doesn't reach, then "Buy American" will become more than just a jingoistic slogan, it will become a selling point in the pharmaceutical industry.

(In 1938 an institution like the FDA might have been necessary because societal structures like instant communication and product liability law did not exist in their present forms. Even then it wasn't legal to create it. Constitutionally speaking, Congress can't delegate lawmaking authority to anybody else, which is a great deal of what the FDA and every other three-letter agency does, nor can Congress regulate activity that goes on solely within one state. The FDA is not going to leave you alone just because the drugs you make never cross state lines.)

Caveat emptor, you might be thinking. The products are essentially required to bear a label that says that they don't work. Shouldn't that be enough to drive frauds out of business? Why would intelligent consumers spend any of their hard-earned money on these products?
Most consumers ignore these labels altogether, especially when they have personal experience with a product and "are sure it works"--and some of them think that the required disclaimers are some kind of government conspiracy to prevent "cheap, natural remedies" from becoming mainstream.

If people don't want to be ripped off, they can either learn to analyze scientific literature, or pick doctors to listen to who have a good history of producing results. If they choose to act without either analyzing the situation themselves or following the advice of those who have, that's their problem. I'm nobody's parent, so neither I nor anybody who operates in my name (i.e., government) should be out trying to protect people from themselves by any means more coercive than persuasion.

I do not assume that anyone has my best interests at heart. I think you assume that government regulators have my best interests at heart. No, they have their own interests at heart just like everybody else. Usually their interests and mine coincide, but when they don't, I'm stuck. Many government decisions are made under the principle of "What has the least chance to make me look bad in front of the people I answer to?" instead of "What's the right thing to do here?" Anytime the people who work for the government have different interests than mine, which they sometimes will, they are still authoritative. I still have to live with the consequences of the fact that everybody has to do what they say. I don't like that.

(Btw, thanks for catching my mistake about cocaine.)
Brian
[info]archmage_brian at 2008-12-25 20:36 (UTC) (Link)
In 1938 an institution like the FDA might have been necessary because societal structures like instant communication and product liability law did not exist in their present forms. Even then it wasn't legal to create it.

Statements like this suggest to me that you are not concerned with what actually produces the "greatest good" but rather what best upholds some principle of Constitutional orthodoxy. Whether it was "legal" according to a reading of the Constitution should matter less than the actual, measurable outcome of the decision to create the FDA and other regulatory bodies.

According to one reading of the Constitution, the Federal Government doesn't have the right to print money, either.

If you're going to declare "following the Constitution exactly" to be a higher value than "doing the greatest good for the most people," then we have nothing further to discuss.

If people don't want to be ripped off, they can either learn to analyze scientific literature, or pick doctors to listen to who have a good history of producing results. If they choose to act without either analyzing the situation themselves or following the advice of those who have, that's their problem.

Without a regulatory body to require companies to provide accurate information on their labels, there is no reason for them to do so. If it is more profitable for a company to lie than to tell the truth, and there's nobody to smack them around for it, why shouldn't they, especially if they aren't obvious lies?

The fact that foods are required to have nutrition data listed is a result of government regulation. The fact that all of the ingredients in a drug/supplement must be listed is a result of government regulation. Even now, even with that regulation, companies are selling a lot of supplements and products that are completely worthless. It's true that it would be difficult to get away with selling a product that simply kills people outright, but it's much harder to prosecute people for selling ineffective patent medicines that are otherwise (mostly) harmless. Current regulation permits the FDA to order recall or discontinuation of a product from the market only if it can be proven extensively that the product in question is linked to causing considerable harm. Companies producing dietary supplements, for example, do not have to prove that their products are safe--it is the onus of the FDA to prove that they are unsafe, a rule that clearly favors the right of a business to sell its product over the right of people to be protected from unscrupulous companies. People buy them anyway because they are easily misled--the information needed to make good choices is not readily available or easily interpreted by laymen who don't have a medical education, and sources of misinformation are abundant. This isn't about protecting people from themselves, it's about preventing companies from ripping people off.

I don't always expect government agencies to do what is best for people; they're as fallible as anyone else. But I expect a third-party agency to police the behavior of businesses much better than I expect businesses to police themselves (cough cough, lending crisis).

To return to the subject of "people needing to learn how not to get ripped off," I'm giving you an assignment. I'm going to name three products that are commonly sold in pharmacies--not just health food stores or whatever, but at Big Boxes and Corner Drug. I want you to determine whether or not they are safe and effective.

Hoodia gordonii

Cold-Eeze(R) lozenges

Ameal BP(R)

You might, assuming a high degree of internet literacy, find this assignment relatively easy. But if that's the case, I'd like to see how you'd fare if you were in the roughly 40% of Americans over age 50 or 70% of Americans over age 65 who don't regularly use the internet or search engines to find information--at which point your primary sources of information are TV, newspapers, magazines, and other printed media.
friendstephen
[info]friendstephen at 2008-12-27 03:54 (UTC) (Link)
Hoodia gordonii has an active ingredient that seems to have attracted a lot of scientific interest. More than one regulated drug company has tried to produce a commercial product based on it, but all have been unable to either synthesize the molecule, or to produce a safe and effective product based on that molecule. The source of genuine hoodia gordonii is very limited making it very expensive. It can be hard to find a product that actually contains hoodia gordonii. There is anecdotal evidence of patient harm from taking hoodia gordonii, but the harms reported seems to be as variable and hard to pin down as the benefits claimed.

My take on it is that there might be some conceivable drug based on hoodia gordonii that is effective, but there is no way to tell which, if any, of the ones on the market are that drug.

There have been plenty of studies of Cold-Eeze's effectiveness and safety. I encountered a lot of arguing over which studies were well-controlled and which weren't, but there are lot of studies by reputable researchers with no reason to carry Quigley's water that say that it is safe and effective. There are small but significant numbers of patients who have reported immediate and permanent anosmia after using the nasal spray form of zinc gloconate (Cold-Eeze's active). I already knew about that. When I get a cold I use the Cold-Eeze losenges and had looked into the possibility of using the spray. Some studies claim the spray is more effective (or the only effective form), but I decided not to play the sense-of-smell lottery and try it.

My personal, subjective belief about the effectiveness of Cold-Eeze, having used it many times, is that about half the time it does make the cold seem to be less severe and shorter in duration than colds when I have not used it at all, and about half the time I think it doesn't do anything except give me a really bad taste in my mouth. None of that is proof of anything, just my experience.

Information on Ameal BP is hard to come by. I had never even heard of it before you mentioned it. I couldn't find any controversy over its safety (it seems to be safe) but there was some controversy over its effectiveness. I get the impression that it generally shows results against mild hypertension, but not for more severe cases. Water pills like the Triamterene I take are cheap, effective, and generally well-tolerated. I wouldn't take Ameal BP even if my hypertension were mild (it is not). However I would not feel comfortable making that decision for everyone.

But here we part company for good, it seems. While I do not agree with your precise formulation of my viewpoint, for your purposes you have probably identified it. From 1787 to 1865 the US Constitution tacitly accepted slavery; clearly it is not holy writ from everlasting to everlasting. But if that document is not our highest value, then any time the people of this country get scared of something, rightly or wrongly (freed slaves, unsafe drugs, Communism, immigrants, terrorism), the freedoms protected in that document will go by the wayside.

I just don't buy the idea that "doing the greatest good for the most people" is a wise goal. I don't trust our political system, or any political system yet conceived, to be able to determine truly what "the greatest good" means, or even to be able to fairly determine whether "the most people" will receive or have received the greatest good.

Thank you for corresponding with me.
Virginia Fell
[info]virginia_fell at 2008-12-24 01:22 (UTC) (Link)
I think it's shifting the goalposts a bit to say that Libertarians don't actually believe the unreasonable or impractical things in their party platform, just the good ones that everyone can accept like the idea that freedom is good and fraud is mean.

The things I've mentioned are in the Libertarian platform, and the fact that they make no sense doesn't mean that people don't believe them. It means that people often claim to be Libertarians without knowing what that actually entails. Many people who are merely permissive jump on the Libertarian bandwagon without thinking too hard about the platform. Liberty is good, and letting people make lots of choices is good, and letting people live their lives the way they want as long as they're not hurting anybody is also really nice sounding, and everyone can agree with these things.

However, the party platform is about more than that, and even if you agree with me that a lot of it is stupid and shouldn't be believed by anyone, that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

As for the FDA, I don't think you understand what it does or why we have it. You are conflating telling consumers "you're not allowed to want or have these things because we're worried you'll hurt yourself" and saying to a company, "you're not allowed to sell drugs that you can't demonstrate to an expert are safe and effective."

Either you want people to be prevented from committing fraud and hurting people, or you don't. You seemed to contradict yourself on the FDA thing, since you want businesses to be punished for selling harmful stuff, but you don't want the FDA to be able to prevent that fraudulent sale from happening in the first place (...and the party agrees. "We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services," says the party platform). Does this really look like the best way to deal with the FDA's jurisdiction?
friendstephen
[info]friendstephen at 2008-12-24 01:54 (UTC) (Link)
I'm not saying the Libertarians don't believe in impractical things. I hadn't read their platform in years until I saw it linked here. I'm a libertarian (political philosophy, small-"l"), not a member of the Libertarian party. I've just now gone back and re-read it. I think they fall short regarding the environment, but there isn't much else there I disagree with.

I know exactly what the FDA does. I used to work at an FDA-regulated drug company. Most of my job was to maintain paperwork about a computer system that nobody but an FDA inspector was ever going to look at. Even the FDA inspector would not be getting any useful information out of my paperwork; they would just be looking to see that it was done. That was the best-paying job I ever had, and it was largely unnecessary.

Demonstrating to an expert that a drug is safe and effective takes many, many years and boatloads of money. There are some diseases that are so rare that no drug could ever be economically created to treat them because by the time the drug was proven to be effective, the cost per treatment would be more than any insurance company would pay and more than any national health system could afford.

Indeed, I do not want people to be prevented from committing fraud and hurting people because that requires a big, slow-moving, expensive regulatory regime that will sit and do paperwork while people die. I want people who commit fraud and hurt people caught and punished so severely that there is no incentive for a rational person to try it in the first place.
Arthur Chu
[info]arctangent at 2008-12-24 06:47 (UTC) (Link)
I want people who commit fraud and hurt people caught and punished so severely that there is no incentive for a rational person to try it in the first place.

Deciding to toss prevention out of the picture is the easy way out, of course, but even then it doesn't make it that much easier. Even proving that a drug actually *has* caused harm, in the face of stubborn denials from well-heeled corporate lawyers, still requires a big, slow-moving, expensive regulatory regime.

Fraud only becomes so thoroughly disincentivized "no rational person would try it" if your regulatory framework for catching and punishing people is perfect. No real-life system could possibly come close, especially in a world where wishful thinking causes consumers to actively band together to defend the hucksters who cheat them. If we lacked that regulatory framework we'd lack the piles of evidence we need to go after people either before *or* after they actually kill somebody.
Arthur Chu
[info]arctangent at 2008-12-24 06:50 (UTC) (Link)
There are some diseases that are so rare that no drug could ever be economically created to treat them because by the time the drug was proven to be effective, the cost per treatment would be more than any insurance company would pay and more than any national health system could afford.


And in a no-regulation world, it *still* wouldn't be worth the money to sell drugs to these people that worked -- with so few people forming a sample size, so desperate that placebo effects and wishful thinking could have a powerful effect on them, it's far more cost-effective to flood the market with snake oil and caveat emptor.

Given that this is *exactly what the entire pharmaceutical market looked like in the 19th and early 20th century* -- there has rarely been a growth industry as lucrative as the market for snake-oil patent medicines -- the claim that this is an idle or theoretical objection is bullshit. It is exactly what would happen in the absence of regulation because we've seen it happen. And looking at the proliferation of bullshit that gets sold over the Internet now even despite the existence of regulations I'm extremely skeptical that modern technology has somehow solved the problem of desperate sick people being willing to be cheated.
Franklin
[info]tacit at 2008-12-24 04:46 (UTC) (Link)
The difference between the FDA approach and the libertarian approach is that the FDA says you can't take an unapproved drug, period.

That's a commonly-held belief, but it's not true. What the FDA does is something slightly different: it says you may not market or sell an unapproved drug. There are basically two rules:

1. No lying. You can not market or sell something by saying it will cure some disease if you can't show that it will.

2. No harm. You can't market or sell a drug if you can't show that it's safe in its intended use.

That's it. The FDA doesn't place restrictions on what you take; that's the job of a different organization (the Drug Enforcement Agency). The FDA restricts what you market or sell.
cernowain
[info]cernowain at 2008-12-24 03:41 (UTC) (Link)

Liberation vs Libertarianism

Virginia, I like your synopsis of Libertarianism. The Free Marketeers are central/integral to the party's ideology. The peripheral "kooks" are mostly those who want individual freedoms that they feel are personal choices (like the right to use mary juana recreationally). I do not agree with the former, while I can appreciate the latter.

Margret Thatcher once allegedly said to Ronald Reagan, "Economic freedom IS freedom". I think that sums up the view of the Libertarian Free Marketeers. Any other freedoms or rights are then subservient to the right to own wealth, property or investments.

That's what scares me away from the Libertarian party. My goal in life isn't to amass wealth. I believe there are other virtues (mostly Pagan virtues, mind you) that I value more than economic freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of artistic expression, of religious choice, etc.

I predict that in the future the Republican party is going to move away from the Free Marketeers in the future and make a move toward the center. Especially if the Recession persists for a lengthy period.

Since I work in the health care field, I hope to see health care become socialized so that financial mogels in health insurance are no longer skimming the top 15% off the top and telling doctors how to practice medicine. I long to see an end to the injustice from two tier level of care--those with insurance and those without-- created by the Free Marketeers. There are some things that Free Marketing does not help... and health care is one of those.

I am all for liberation, the kind that is for the good of all and doesn't infringe on the individual rights and welfare of others. And I do not see that happening with Libertarianism.

bb,

Cern
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